SS: Today I have the pleasure of chatting with a dynamic duo of authors, Steph Mullin and Nicole Mabry. They met as co-workers in New York City in 2012, discovering a shared passion for writing and true crime. After Steph relocated to Charlotte, North Carolina in 2018, they continued to collaborate creatively. Separated by five states, they spend countless hours scheming via FaceTime and editing each other’s typos in real time on live Google Docs. Steph’s dream of becoming a writer started at age six, followed by winning scholastic writing awards and crafting articles for her university literary magazine. She currently works as Creative Director for a Media, Entertainment and Digital Marketing Solutions company. Nicole works in television as Senior Manager of Post Production in the photography department. She is the author of Past This Point (2019), an award-winning apocalyptic women’s fiction novel. Past This Point was chosen as Best Book of the Year by Indies Today and won first place in the Global Thriller division of the Chanticleer International Book Awards. The Family Tree is the writing duo’s first co-authored crime novel.
SS: What prompted your collaboration? How do you think you and your book benefited from it? What about it did you find irksome? Would you do it again?
SM/NM: We met while working at the same company in 2012 in a photo department and became quick friends. When Nicole started writing her debut solo novel after parting ways to a new company, Steph also decided to write her first novel, so we began beta reading for each other and having writing sessions in wine bars and coffee shops. It became clear early on that we had opposite strengths, leading to great notes and conversations to solve problems in every area from plot to word choice and character development. Areas Nicole struggled with, Steph excelled at and vice versa. We joked that if we could just combine into a single writer that it would be perfect, and this planted the seed of writing together. Over the next few years, Nicole lobbed plot ideas at Steph left and right until lightning struck and we both felt so passionate about the same concept that it was worth pausing on all other solo writing to pursue the idea for The Family Tree. Our book benefitted by our collaboration in so many ways. We each took on responsibilities that were our strong suits, leaving room for the other writer to focus on the areas that suited them best, while always learning from each other along the way. The result was we got to a clean, finished copy fairly quickly, as we had a built-in editor along the way on every chapter by constantly passing our work back and forth. Whenever we hit a snag, the writer with the strength in that area could take over to do more research or spend time reworking a timeline. Yes, we’d definitely do it again, and are! Our second co-authored novel is set to come out in 2022.
SS: What are you working on at the moment?
SM/NM: We just finished our second novel which will be out in the UK in all versions in March 2022, with a simultaneous e-book release in the US and the US paperback to follow. This book is not a sequel and is very different than The Family Tree. In this book, our main character Margo returns to her small mountain hometown for the first time since her childhood best friend Jessie went missing 15 years before. After Margo returns, running away from a failed marriage, Jessie’s body is finally discovered. A popular true crime show, similar to Unsolved Mysteries, that ended years ago comes back for a much-anticipated reboot. The crew returns to Margo’s town to cover the new evidence in Jessie’s case, pulling Margo into the investigation the police botched 15 years ago. It’s very much a story of small-town secrets where it seems like everyone has something to hide.
SS: Do you hide any secrets in your books that only a few people will find?
SM/NM: Nicole is a horror movie lover so when we were writing The Family Tree, she wanted to find ways to include some secret breadcrumbs that only horror lovers would find. We don’t want to give it away, but if anyone finds the secret horror movie connections, slide into our Instagram DM’s and let us know! Nothing makes Nicole happier than someone picking up on these little tidbits.
SS: Khaled Hosseini (The Kite Runner) feels he discovers a story rather than creates it. Are you a plotter? Or do let the novel develop organically?
SM/NM: This is one area where we differ. Nicole is a hardcore Pantser, letting the circumstances and characters drive the plot as she writes. But Steph is a die-hard Plotter who creates very detailed outlines. Early on, we knew we’d need to be Plotters with an outline to follow if we had any hope of working independently on the same story from different states. So Steph dragged Nicole, kicking and screaming, over to the outlining club. But now, Nicole is a lover of outlining, knowing where not only the story, but also each chapter will start and end is a huge help when writing, especially as a team.
SS: I loved The Family Plot. I’ll have to check out your other two choices. What is the most recent book you’ve written? In twenty-five words or less, tell me why your book should be a reader should start your book next.
SM/NM: The Family Tree – A chilling look at what would happen if a 23andMe kit revealed you were adopted … and related to a serial killer who’s never been caught.
SS: Can you share with us a bit about the moment when the idea for your novel first popped into your head? Did the idea come to you all at once, or did different pieces of the story come to you over time?
SM/NM: Steph and Nicole had been following the Golden State Killer case closely, especially with the new developments using Forensic Genealogy. The moment he was identified due to a familial DNA match, we both knew this would change criminal investigations and in turn, the thriller/mystery/suspense genre. One night Nicole called Steph and said, “A thriller about a 23andMe kit. Go!” In the next hour, we both began coming up with plot ideas and low and behold, when we hopped back on the phone, we had both crafted the same general plot. Once we dug into the structure we wanted to use, the rest of the plot fell into place. For the most part, our novel has stuck to the original idea. However, the ending has changed a few times and a new idea for that came very late when we were in the final editing staged with our editor.
SS: Was the decision of how to structure the novel obvious?
SM/NM: We wanted to have a unique structure on this novel from the get-go. Mostly that was because we had two stories to tell. That of Liz, our main character, who finds out she’s adopted from a 23andMe kit, and then finds out she’s related to a notorious serial killer. But we also wanted to tell the story of The Tri-State Killer and his victims. Pretty quickly, we wanted to focus that timeline on the victims’ experiences, to highlight them as real people rather than glorifying the monster himself. But how to do that and still tell the process of our serial killer? We brainstormed many different structures but finally settled on alternating chapters. We created short “victim chapters” that spanned a forty-year timeline, each chapter from the perspective of one pair of victims in the order he took them approximately every two years. Each victims’ chapter reveals the next step in the killer’s process, each snapshot working together to complete the full picture of his actions from start to finish, but from the perspective of the victims. Our main chapters follow our protagonist, Liz, in current day and only spans a few months, but the two timelines converge in the end in present day to reveal the killer’s identity. This structure took a lot of planning, lots of visual aids, and hours of Facetimes. But we are both happy with how the structure played off these parallel stories, the victims and Liz’s journey as she tries to find her biological family.
SS: How did you make the decision regarding point(s) of view?
SM/NM: This was definitely the hardest decision for us. Nicole loves first person, and Steph loves third. We didn’t want that to create arguments or disagreements, so we wrote the first three chapters of the book both ways and let our beta readers decide. We had both chosen an equal number of betas on each side who we trusted and were our target readers. We sent the first three chapters to them; they voted on which POV they liked best, and we went with that, which ended up being first person, although the victim chapters changed point of view to help them stand out from Liz’s chapters. For our second novel however, our editor told us right away that third person would work best and that’s how we wrote it. Moving forward it’ll be a case-by-case basis, whatever works best for the concept we are writing.
SS: What kind of research did you think you had to do? How much was actually needed?
SM/NM: We knew we’d have to research genealogy and how muddled family trees connect to one another, but it got way more complicated than we originally thought. We knew we needed an expert to answer our questions. We were lucky enough to find a Genealogist to consult and she even created a diagram of her own family tree to explain connections and how they would appear on a familial DNA kit. Another area that we didn’t think about until we were well into writing was FBI involvement. We thought from all the crime/thriller shows we watch and books we read, that we had a good understanding of how the FBI would interact with our main character. But questions kept arising so we reached out to the FBI and luckily, they decided to consult for us as well. We had an hour-long chat with an agent and he cleared up so many of our questions on process and correct language to use. Then we had to go back and adjust that area of our novel to fit more realistically with what would actually happen. At that point, we thought we were done with research but so much more popped up when we went through edits with our editor. A good rule that we now follow is, as much research as you think you’ll have to do, double it and that would probably be a more accurate projection.
SS: Do you prefer tidy endings, or can you leave a few loose ends?
SM/NM: Honestly, we like both. When everything is answered and wrapped up, as readers we feel satisfied with the book. Loose ends can be really exciting as long as there is some kind of resolution at the end, and the loose ends just add an additional level of intrigue that allows your mind to fill in the “what next” blanks. Originally, we had a tidy ending for The Family Tree, but as we kept editing and adding new sections, we decided to update this ending to leave the potential for a sequel (should it ever option) and now we feel really good about it, loving that you both have all the answers and have room for more. A few questions or even a cliff hanger at the end can be thrilling if done right.
SS: How has the discovery of DNA changed crime fiction?
SM/NM: Any time there are changes in criminal investigations in the real world, it flows over into the world of fiction as well. It gives writers more material, more options to create mind-blowing twists and creative plots that stem from the darkest parts of the human existence. The discovery of DNA and the changes in how that DNA is used to solve crimes, means that fiction has an entire area to explore … and also, more challenges to consider when figuring out how the criminal would be caught (or get away with their crimes). There’s more procedure to follow and consider, but in a way that makes crime fiction feel real as it bursts off the page.
LIGHTNING ROUND: 
Book(s) you’re currently reading:
NICOLE: Currently I’m reading The Perfect Marriage by Jeneva Rose. Next up in my to-be-read list is Nanny Needed by Georgina Cross.
STEPH: I’m currently reading and loving Finding Tessa by Jaime Lynn Hendricks and The Family Plot by Megan Colins.
Your favorite serial killer: The Golden State Killer (as his capture was such an inspiration for The Family Tree and a pivotal moment in how cold cases are solved)
Your favorite villain: Dexter. One of the few times you find yourself rooting for a serial killer to succeed!
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The Family Tree is available through:
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An excerpt from The Family Tree:
A sharp smile stretched across his face, lingering as he reflected on how he had outsmarted the police for so many years. While it was a mistake that he hadn’t been aware of the security camera in the alley where he’d discarded numbers two and three, and he’d miscalculated the time the second roommate was arriving home that one fateful night in 1999, causing him to scramble out the back door, the fallout from both had been minimal. After forty years of carrying out his mission, they only had his approximate height and eye and hair color. He’d been savvy enough to adjust his process after that girl, Sara, had changed her routine. The solution was ingenious. It lured these women into unknowingly allowing him full access into their lives. And the police were still no closer to finding him, the imbeciles. He was not worried.
The sunlight filtered through the window above the sink, lighting up the small kitchen with its outdated appliances and broken cabinet knobs. The ancient refrigerator hummed loudly, most likely needing a new evaporator fan. He really should put some effort into fixing up the cabin, but he was getting older and even though he kept himself in good shape, the arthritis in his joints sometimes made home repairs a struggle. He preferred to save his strength for the girls. The cabin had been outfitted well for hunting and fishing, and the tiled cleaning and gutting room had certainly come in handy. But for his purposes, he’d needed other things added and adjusted. All the work he’d done in the beginning had been for function, not vanity. The appliances still worked fine, and he’d already replaced the roof when it’d been damaged by a storm a few years back. He felt lucky that in all these years the only repairs needed were the roof and the occasional broken floorboard, things he could manage on his own. If the plumbing had failed he would have been in a bind. The last thing he wanted was to bring a repair guy into his special place.
Clenching his fist, the heat rose to his cheeks as he reread the article calling his first murder sloppy. The police didn’t even use DNA evidence back then so how could he have known to be more careful? That didn’t make him sloppy. He’d wiped off his fingerprints, hadn’t he? All those other killers had been caught by stupid mistakes, mistakes he’d never make, and they had the audacity to call him sloppy? He slammed his fist down onto the table, causing his glass to tip over and crash down to the floor, shattering as it sent small slivers of glass in every direction.
A scream erupted behind him. Then another. As the screaming went on he rose from his chair and walked over to the door. He would give them a chance to stop on their own. No one would ever call him unreasonable. When the screaming continued, he pulled out the keys and unlocked the door. He gripped the handle and slowly turned. All noise stopped immediately. Satisfied, he released the knob and rubbed his hand up and down the door, savoring the grooves in the wood under his fingertips.
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You can follow Nicole Mabry on social media here:
Twitter | Instagram | Facebook
You can follow Steph Mullin on social media here:
Twitter | Instagram | Facebook
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